Thousands Protest Wis. Plan To Cut Worker Rights

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — Thousands of people descended on the Wisconsin state Capitol again Wednesday to protest a bill that would strip most public employees of their collective bargaining rights, but Gov. Scott Walker insisted he has the votes to pass the measure.

On the second consecutive day of demonstrations, Walker said he was open to making changes in the legislation, the boldest anti-union proposal in the nation. But he said he would not “fundamentally undermine the principles” of the bill, which he says is needed to help balance a projected $3.6 billion budget shortfall and avoid widespread layoffs.

“We’re at a point of crisis,” Walker said.

The full Legislature could begin voting on the proposal as early as Thursday.

More than 13,000 protesters gathered at the Capitol on Tuesday for a 17-hour public hearing on the measure. Thousands more came Wednesday, with hundreds chanting “Recall Walker now!” outside the governor’s office.

If adopted, the bill would mark an especially dramatic shift for Wisconsin, which was the first state to pass a comprehensive collective bargaining law in 1959. The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees — the national union representing all non-federal public employees — was founded in 1936 in Madison.

There were some signs that support for the plan may be waning among Republicans who control the Legislature. Senate Republicans met in secret Wednesday morning to discuss the bill. Asked where Republicans stood on Walker’s proposal, Sen. Dan Kapanke of La Crosse told The Associated Press, “That’s a really good question. I don’t know.”

The protests have been larger and more sustained than any in Madison in decades. More than 1,000 protesters, many of whom spent the night in sleeping bags on the floor of the Rotunda, shouted “Kill this bill!” on Wednesday.

In Madison, more than 40 percent of the 2,600 union-covered teachers and staff called in sick, forcing the superintendent to call off classes Wednesday in the state’s second-largest district. No other widespread sickouts were reported at any other school, according to the state teachers union which represents 98,000 teachers and staff.

Prisons, which are staffed by unionized guards who would lose their bargaining rights under the plan, were operating as normal without any unusual absences, according to Department of Corrections spokeswoman Linda Eggert.

Walker has said he would call out the National Guard to staff the prisons if necessary. A union leader for prison workers did not immediately return messages.

Before Tuesday’s marathon hearing, Republican leaders in the Senate and Assembly said they had enough votes to pass the bill as Walker proposed.

Scott Spector, a lobbyist for AFT-Wisconsin, which represents about 17,000 public employees, said the demonstrations were having an effect on lawmakers.

Union representatives were attempting to sway key moderates for a compromise, but Democrats said the bill would be tough to stop. Democrats lost the governor’s office and control of the Legislature in the November midterm elections.

“The Legislature has pushed these employees off the cliff, but the Republicans have decided to jump with them,” said Sen. Bob Jauch, one of 14 Democrats in the 33-member chamber.

While other states have proposed bills curtailing labor rights, Wisconsin’s measure is the most aggressive anti-union move to solve budget problems. It would end most collective bargaining for state, county and local workers, except for police, firefighters and the state patrol.

Protesters targeted the budget committee’s public hearing Tuesday to launch what Republican Rep. Robin Vos called a “citizen filibuster,” which kept the meeting going until 3 a.m. Wednesday.

Two floors below the hearing, dozens of University of Wisconsin-Madison teaching assistants and students poured into the Capitol rotunda late Tuesday evening, putting down sleeping bags and blankets. Many were asleep on the floor when the hearing ended.

“I just think it’s really crappy,” said Alison Port, a 19-year-old freshman from Wauwatosa. “Let’s take all the rights away. If he starts here, where’s he going to stop? What else is he going to throw at us? It’s only going to get more extreme.”

But when voters elected Walker, an outspoken conservative, along with GOP majorities in both legislative chambers, it set the stage for a dramatic reversal of Wisconsin’s labor history.

Walker’s plan would make workers pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care premiums. State employees’ costs would go up by an average of 8 percent. The changes would save the state $30 million by June 30 and $300 million over the next two years to address a $3.6 billion budget shortfall.

Unions could still represent workers, but could not seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.

In exchange for bearing more costs and losing leverage, public employees were promised no furloughs or layoffs. Walker has threatened to order layoffs of up to 6,000 state workers if the measure does not pass.

Wisconsin is one of about 30 states with collective bargaining laws covering state and local workers.

Walker has argued that the public employee concessions are modest considering what private sector workers have suffered during the recession. Democratic opponents and union leaders said Walker’s real motive is to strike back at political opponents who have supported Democrats over the years.


A Minnesota labor leader, President Lynn Nordgren of the Minneapolis Federation of Teachers, says similar uprisings could happen elsewhere.

“I think you might see us rise up in other places. We understand there are going to be tight times coming forward, but if you take away collective bargaining rights, it’s a much bigger thing than just our salaries and our time. It’s our voices,” she said.

WCCO Interviews Lynn Nordgren of the Minneapolis Federation of Teachers

Nordgren spoke with WCCO from Denver, where she’s attending a national convention on how teachers and districts can collaborate on ways to solve problems and improve education.

(© Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.)

  • helper

    Scott Walker is a phony. This guy is a sorry excuse for a man.

    His business paid zero Wisconsin taxes in the last 10 years. He also just hired his ‘buddy’ to run the housing department. This ‘buddy’ has years of unpaid taxes.

    What hypocrites! But I guess hey Wisconsin you morons elected him!

    • C Nablus

      You are exactly right – Wisconsin citizens didn’t do their homework before they voted this arrogant s.o.b. in!

    • Ron

      I guess Democrats are just getting used to paying their tax bills for a change like.. Tom Daschle and Timothy Geitner. The fact of the matter is that the state cannot afford the costs which these unions are forcing on both our public and private sectors. The morons title belongs those people who are irresponsible with spending money which belongs to their citizens.

      • Chris

        That is right and in MN, Dayton is the biggest hypocrite of them all!!!
        He has millions and maybe billions stashed out of sight and offshore…
        So his own reported income doesn’t even meet the top 5% = JOKE!
        His Daytons/Taget weatth and Rockefeller relatives’ wealth is immense…
        We should simplify the tax system (state and fed) to eliminate this…
        although he will also find another loophole or hundred to play the game.

      • Tomee

        Hey moron…they are also your citizens…

  • Fleeing to Minnesota

    After just 6 weeks in office, Gov. Walker is quickly creating “Wississipi” as one writer aptly called it, of the Upper Midwest. Not only has he slapped three major industries in the face (wind, rail and telecom) by rejecting federal grant and stimulus money, he is openly practicing cronyism by stripping some public workers of their rights while letting others (the police unions who endorsed him) keep their benefit bargaining rights. The dirtiest secret of all is that most union and almost all nonunion state employees have not had raises in many years (If they did they were less than 1-2 % I believe) and in fact have had cuts with the furloughs AND MOST IMPORTANTLY that their wages are much, much lower as compared with other states. I used to work for the state and for years was an unbenefited, grossly underpaid “temporary” LTE employee of which there are tons all over who already have no rights. I’m now in private industry where I earn a living wage and have benefits. Many friends from those days are making very low wages and have for years but they remain committed to public service. And they ARE paying for their health insurance and contributing to their pensions – figures I have not seen in any reports. Take a hard look at the shape Walker left Milwaukee county, and that is the future of the whole state.

    • JP

      Don’t flee to Minnesota! If our democrat governor gets his way our tax rate will be the highest in the nation.

      • Middle Class in MN

        Only for the Denny Heckers of the world. My tax rate won’t change (in fact, should go down as the many “fees” Pawlenty imposed on the middle class would now be paid once again by the elite earners.)

        I’m glad for you that you’re in the top 5% of income brackets. The rest of us aren’t affected.

      • JP

        No I’m not in the 5% of wealthiest in MN. Ask yourselves this guys. How much more of your income are you willing to give to the govt. 5%? 10%? 15%? Our small business owners are the ones who will suffer with further tax hikes, which in turn will hurt all of us. SMALLER GOVT NOT BIGGER TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • C Nablus

        Oh, then you must make 500k a year…ha

      • Tomee

        BS…Dayton just wants the wealthy to pay their fair share proportionally…you got a problem with that Teapublican???

      • Indy

        Get it right JP, Minnesota tax rate highest for the top 5 percent. The rest will not see a tax hike. Dayton is trying to NOT force the burden on the just the middle and poor class of people to pay for our defecit. Dayton is not like the Republicans which have managed to protected the top 5 percent durring the years of Pawlenty. Unless you are the top 5% of wealthy Minnesotians you should not be whinning about Dayton.

      • Indy

        That is on personal incomes and their fancy homes. It is not directed towards buisnesses JP. If you are a small buisness you need to be paying yourself and putting the profits back into your company for growth instead of playing richman…..

      • JP

        Tomee–Proportionally? Percentage wise? Do you mean like a “Fair Tax” policy where everyone pays the same percent of their income in taxes? If you make 30k a year you pay 7%, if you make 300k a year you pay 7% (for example)? I couldn’t agree with you more. Then as it is right now, we who are in the middle class would have to pay more taxes to pay our fair share. (the rich pay a higher percent than the middle class).

  • th

    They act like public employees just sit around and don’t do anything. If it weren’t for public employees who do you think would get the roads fixed, help the POOR get what they need? Everyone uses the roads, etc. but they don’t want to pay for them.

    Repubicans are only for the rich (the ones that helped them get elected). They all say they are christians, but they don’t act like a christian. Phony very phony

    • Chuck

      TH… what we need is for the public employees to live on decent wages and benefits… Not the Cadillac style that they now think they are entitled to! Their rates and benefits far exceed the rest of the average folks in the private sector that keep taking hits… and that really burns the taxpayers when the folks they are supporting live better than they do! Why would any private sector employer give their people retirement at 55 with a pension so rich they don’t even come clsoe to tapping the principal??? It is because of the leverage the unions have had and that has turned the equation upside down and it is unsustainable! They have been hogs at the trough like hte GM employees and are ruining it for everyone!

    • Dan

      Also, How can you even begin to compare public and private sector employees. When it comes to salaries private sector employees make almost 25% more than public sector employees. These cuts on salary, retirement, and health benefits are gonig to hit hard to public employees.

    • Chris

      TH … WHAT?! You don’t just sit around all day collecting our tax dollars?
      What a concept!!!

  • Hmmm....

    Why do public employees need a union? What rights are being protected?

    • scott

      Feb. 10. A MN House committee has passed legislation that bans pay raises or bonuses for state employees, strips their right to strike over pay, and makes it easier to privatize their jobs. So feel free to contact AFSCME @ 651- 450-4990 and ask them why these jobs and rights need to be protected.

      • Peter

        sounds like a great bill, thanks for the info, I will call and let them know we support it.

  • Tom

    No surprise here another Republican asking the little guy too bend over. Why don’t the Republicans just put the ball and chain to the little guy now and just get it done with. By the way how much money did it cost the citizens of Wisc too put up those little signs under the signs “welcome to wisc” saying ‘wisc is open for business” by the MN and IL borders. I know the people who were there when that was done were proud of themselves. But i think they looked like a bunch of idiots but that is no surprise Republicans they are used to it lol

  • Tom


    If you think about it the reason for the unions is so that the little guy has bargaining power and the little guy has a voice. Because when the going gets tough it usually the little guy that takes the hit so the big guy at the top doesn’t have too suffer. It’s the little guy that makes the big guy rich. If the little guy strikes the big guy doesn’t make money. The conservatives seem too think that the big guy drives the economy they don’t. Its little guy that makes the big guy.

    • Chris

      But in fairness the “big guy” you refer to has put his neck (and house and savings) on the line and will lose it all if anything goes sideways… ruined forever… look around and I am not talking about Denny Hecker as plenty of motivated business people have gone down the tubes in the last 3 years! The “little guy” you refer to goes down the street to collect unemployment to the max, then finally settles on another job to his liking when he is good and ready…
      Put your money where your mouth is and see what that gets you!!!

      • Tom


        The “big guy” could lose it right away if whatever business they choose too start up never gets off the ground. And the “big guy” could lose it a year or 2 down the road if the product or service they offered is no longer the “hot thing”. Ruined forever? Well that is the chance you take for trying too start up your own business. You will either hit the home run or you will strike. People know the risks they are taking when they try too start up something on their own. As far as the “little guy” you are referring too who goes the street too collect unemployment to the max then finally settles on another job to his liking when he is good and ready what are you smoking? You must be a conservative too make such a comment like that. And by the way it is not just the “big guy” who puts his neck on the line. Whoever they have hired they are putting their necks out as well as they know being a new busniess anything could happen.

  • J

    Wow, you’d think the public sector employees were being required to accept a reduction of pay or benefits. My private sector health care premium just went up 10% and my deductible went from $2,000 to $3,000 for each member of the family, with a $6,000 family maximum. I’m also expecting my 401k match from the company to be reduced too. Seems to me that Wisconsin public sector employees are being very selfish. They’d rather see thousands in their rank loose their jobs then have to be realistic and pay more for their benefits, just like the private sector employees. Same on the unionized workers there.

    • Mike

      Too bad J, my private sector employee just dropped my deductable and gave me an 8% increase in salary, but my hair is falling out!. Maybe you should start pulling yours out so we can all be the same…………

    • Chuck

      Yeah, not to mention the prevailing wages, etc, that are out of control…
      $48/hour for carpenters?! Why don’t we take this opportunity to clean this stuff up already! This type of slop has got to come to an end, but Obama is pushing it as the unions have him by his short hairs too… We could do twice as many projects and hire twice as many folks if they only paid a normal wage… By the way, we have takend insurance premium hits of 10% for the past 3 years and wage reductions of 20%… I haven’t seen that out of the public sector – ever!

  • Kevin Blaine

    The Fox propaganda machine and tea party nuts are getting a little scary. It has been easy to dismiss them for their wacky ideas. Now how ever combined with the number of people drawn into the propaganda it is becoming dangerous. When the governor of a U.S. state is considering using the national guard to strong arm citizens we should be alarmed. I am sure it conflicts with the constitution. All those folks on the anti union band wagon are forgetting unions are what increased our standard of living. With out unions you would not be doing so well whether you are in a union or not. Unions did all the hard work to increase wages and safety. Your benefiting from it . Don’t believe this just look at what big business pays illegal immigrants. With out unions that’s what you would make as well.

    • C Nablus

      thumbs up!

    • Chris

      Since when is it expected and even proper that the Gov (state and fed) is the largest employer??? What is wrong with that picture? The state is not in a position to be employing all of these people… and you call that strong arming?! Any other operation would just clsoe the doors completely and move on… so maybe these prison guards need to find another occupation.

    • Kyle

      How did you possibly get the idea the governor “is considering using the national guard to strong arm citizens”? He said nothing of the sort. Either you’re setting up a straw man argument to unjustly criticize someone you dislike, or you misread it. The governor simply said he would call in the National Guard to operate PRISONS in the event of the unionized guards skipping work. Should the governor just let those convicts have free run of the prison instead? If anything, the guards should be the ones criticized if that were to happen. Thankfully, the guards are not taking the irresponsible action of skipping work, unlike the teachers who supposedly “just want what’s best for the kids.”

    • Jimmy Hoffa

      He is calling the guard to take care of the prisons if the guards start marching. You forgot to tell the folks that unions drove the mines out of business, the steel industry overseas, manufacturing down south and the auto industry into federal handouts. They sure helped out.

  • Cache

    Does this sound like the Greek workers on entitlements…The more thing change the more they stay the same….Freebie suckers all over the world are similar…greedy and stupid! We have a DEBT CRISIS Stupids!!!!

  • Terry

    Good job republicans. UNIONS ARE THE REASONS WE ARE IN THIS PROBLEM. They are overpaid and underworked. They love ‘THEIR” 8-hr day, but they only work, if lucky, 4 hrs. DOWN WITH THE UNIONS.

    • dunnski57

      Terry – the voice of ignorance. Maybe once people understand that the Republicans want to bring back feudalism, we’ll see more of this.

    • Union Worker in MN

      No, greedy capitalists are the reason we have this problem. I am a new union-covered public employee. I earn a steady income now but it’s a full 25% less than my last private sector income. I get one additional week of vacation. I don’t think that’s worth $20,000.

      • Chuck

        Then explain why you took it and why you seam so satisfied… it a total joke and now you are on the inside looking out and laughing all the way to the bank because they can’t touch you – employment forever – maybe until now, as Walker has the balls to say what is actually going on…

  • D

    WOW – pay into their own pension, pay a portion of their health care AND pay raises in line with the CPI, what a concept. In the private section, my wages have been frozen going into the 3rd year, I put into my own 401K AND my healthcare deductible is close to $2,000. Sorry, don’t feel sorry for the public workers. I understand they provide valuable services, but I’m tired of hearing how much they’re giving up when they’re actually getting more in pay and benefits than the public sector. I’m with J on this one.

    • RR

      Agree with you 100%. Seems to me if gov;t managed itself a bit more like private enterprise (eg: 401k vs pensions, spending vs. revenue, etc) they wouldn’t be in this mess. And if the public employess don’t like it, well, no one’s forcing them to stay there.
      Welcome to our world!

      • Chris

        That is right – when was the last time you saw a state employee quit?
        Better still, when has a state or fed exployee been fired? It just doesn’t happen because they all know they have a better deal than they can imagine anywhere else!

      • Wi Supporter

        Welcome to your world? What do you do? What are your hours? What is your salary? WI Unions agree there need to be cuts made and their members need to pay more. But taking away their Statutory Rights in a week will not accomplish the goal of balancing the budget. How will taking away the right to bargain over pensions, health insurance, working conditions and hours save the state money on this budget? My Dad is a public employee, in the winter he plows snow. He works long hours for humble pay to keep our roads safe and our cities moving. I believe he deserves his pension payments; he deserve his benefits; and he DOESN’T deserve the blame for our state’s budget issues. He continues to provide state services despite reduced wages, increased workload, and longer hours. He has done so with a sense of public service and sacrifice.

        The private sector is just as important to Wisconsin’s continued prosperity as our public servants are. But the survival of one should not depend upon the destruction of the other. Governor Walker and his cohorts need to meet at the bargaining table to form a compromise that everyone can live with.

  • Doug

    It’s about time somebody like Walker stood up to the unions. Unions pay more money than any PAC to their democratic buddies. Democrates are upset because they may lose the money from these unions. By the way, if unions are for the little guys then why do they spend so much money on making sure democrates get elected. Why don’t union presidents take a pay cut???? I was in a union for 12 years and they are a bunch of hooey. They tell you how to vote, say they are working for you but basically do nothing. Why should a union have the power to control a company, city, county, etc. In Minneapolis nurses went on strike causing thousands of patients to have comprimised care. Does that sound like caring for the people?? Not to me. You are an EMPLOYEE not EMPLOYER so if you don’t like the rules then leave. Unions are destroying the country. Go Scott Go.

    • dunnski57

      Clueless Dougie. Read the history of the Industrial Revolution.

      • tea

        LOL…that happened HOW LONG AGO? Before labor laws? Get a clue!

      • C.

        There was a time and place for them…
        Too bad they abused their power and it will sink their ship eventually…
        maybe now is the time!

  • dunnski57

    Workers with courage. Good to see. Corporate dictators have brainwashed too Americans into believing that they are lucky to have a job, while the big wigs enrich themselves with stock options and golden parachutes. If you don’t like unions, fine – go back to what work was before them – no health insurance, no dental insurance, no paid vacation, unsafe working conditions, the 40 hour workweek to name just a few.

    C’mon Terry!! Give back all of the perks of your job and become a slave to the corporate masters.

    • Chuck

      Yeah, right… how many big time wealthy folks exist?
      There are more lottery winners than that…
      and do you begrudge them for winning?
      You have used a bad example…

  • DZ

    If public employee salaries were comparable to the private sector, fine we’ll pay more, but the fact of the matter is the salaries aren’t. Teachers have had the QEO for over 15 years. We couldn’t negotiate any raise. All we got basically was money to pay for health inusrance, no extra money in our pocket’s. We need to stop looking at public employees as the scapegoat for all economic ills. Big business and their poor decision making put us here. Don’t make public eployees pay for it. If this bill passes it will make the phrase “getting blood from a turnip” true.

    • Dan

      Thank you. I wholeheartedly agree. If I made what my private sector counterparts earn I would not be complaining at all.

      Fact is, Many Wisconsin Publib Employees are required to use the Free/Reduced Lunch program and State Funded Health Insurance “BadgerCare” as is. With this proposed budget the number of state employees taking advantage of these taxpayter funded aid programs will increase dramatically.

    • Chris

      Big busness is the cause???
      What a joke that is… Small businesses drive more of the country than the rest…
      And we should look at our roles (individuals) as small businesses…
      And operate within some restraints – the unions do not know how!

  • Mike

    All I can say to that is BULL… I am in a union and guess what? Where I work we are lucky if we get a raise. We didn’t get a raise for 10+ yrs and you are whining because we want some of the benefits you get? My employer doesn’t match my 401K he has not paid into our pension fund for over 3 yrs. Plus he is a Republican, maybe that is why. So you want to complain do it somewhere else.

  • Lisa Gonyea

    Unions were needed a few decades ago…times have changed and Union Bosses get huge salaries…tell members how to vote, give portion of the dues to the Democrats…and are oblivious to the fact that we are in a recession. Check the the waiver requests for getting out of Obamacare and see how many of them are unions…the unions time for effectiveness has long passed. It no longer is about the worker is about the bosses pockets and power.

  • c

    Why no photos?

  • Tea in WI

    Bottom line….he’s doing the RIGHT (or CORRECT) thing here! GOD BLESS WI and the people who voted for him!
    It’s ABOUT TIME!
    For all of you who feel unions are needed….you are trully clueless!

  • tom

    Once again goverment stepping on the people. The rich get richer while the poor pay their taxes and die. I would think its time for the American people to stand up and say ENOUGH!!!!!!! Let us tell the goverment cut your own health and wages, not freeze but REDUCE them. try and live on a 14.00 an hour wage. The rich business owners who take the money and run should pay double taxes.

  • Kally

    I wish this would happen in Minnesota too.
    The Sate and government unions yelled the loudest to raise taxes. They even had their own
    commercials during the recent campaigns. Why? because if we really start looking at where the money goes we
    would find the life long pensions and life long benefits and “I have the right to a job for life” of government workers
    is so out of control that it needs to be changed to 401(k) and “employment at will” like the rest of us. Life long
    pensions can not be sustained. IBM realized this 2 years ago and got rid of Life long pensions.
    Life long pensions are not sustainable now and the problem is getting worse.
    Until we address this elephant in the room we will never balance any budgets.

  • buzzstar

    Government, time to start doing what’s right for the people, Legislature, all you do is sit in meetings, last year medical mar.., this year I.D.’s how about jobs, how many have you created this or last year. bill collectors get away with crap and you do nothing. Amy that tax thing of Obama’s, am dfl anf still really mad.

    • Matt

      Buzz, government can’t create jobs it can only create the environment for jobs to be created by reducing taxes and regulations.

      Any “jobs” created by the government are done with money they took out of the private sector, so it’s a 1 for 1 or usually even less. Government doesn’t create jobs people.

  • 20% Less Tea

    Kally! AMEN! I have taken a 20% PAY CUT in the private sector! And in turn..this has DECEREASED the amount of TAXES I pay….that in turn PAY the Govt workers…..BUT…have Govt workers pay decreased? NOPE! Where is the logic there?

  • New Tea

    WAIT! I think I’m on to something here! Maybe Govt workers should be paid a % of total tax $’s….based on payroll tax! If that # goes down due to unemployment….or pay cuts….or job cuts…..Govt workers get paid LESS! OH! Wait….all that would do is RAISE our TAXES…..WAIT…that’s happening NOW!

    • C.

      You ARE on to something there… I LIKE IT!!!

  • Really?

    We have had to take a severe pay cuts, drastic med. ins. rate hikes on top of very high after ins. payout after paying outragious deductables, and we don’t like it. We are really struggling. I am not alone and I feel Govt. workers also can take a share in this —– yet what is the real problem here? When nearly 10% of the country is unemployed, and unemployed for over two years, that is what is driving our economic downturn. We need to treat the unemployment issues with just as much rhetoric – as often read here in these comments on WCCO – as we do to make our other points about politics. Everyone should be hot under the collar about getting people back to work first and foremost rather than put in so much zeal to say you don’t want to pay more taxes …as if your taxes is putting you on the street in economic ruin as many unemployed are heading or are there now.

  • Randy C

    Go Govenor Walker! Glad to see someone has the guts to make the cuts needed to balance a budget. We have to do it in our own households so you should have to do it in government. State employees and teachers are not guaranteed jobs. Try your little call in sick ploy and see what happens in the private sector!

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